@futurebird the challenge of teaching them. I’ve recently encountered my first mature student who almost certainly has dyscalculia (yay for no tests recognising it or allowing additional considerations in assessments because of it).
Gonna have the ego trip here of “it’s made me look hard at my Maths teaching”. Ask me again once said student has taken their exam though…

@futurebird
I got it all wrong, but that's just me. I got O Level a year early so they put me on advanced maths (basically the first bit of A level). I actually got a U at that, the only thing I failed at (As and Bs otherwise).
The for some odd reason, known only to the young me, now lost in time, I actually took an A level in maths and stats. Why? Why? I got extra tuition because I found it so hard. In the end I got grade E and I really had to work for that.
Retrospective solution? Take art.

@futurebird

We had one professor who liked to comment on the hardest of classes that they were "not as much a matter of the brain as a matter of having an iron butt".

Can you say that in English? Sorry If I'm translating this badly; this was in German. What he meant was that we needed grit and staying power more than perfect understanding.

This definitely carried me through the hard times.

@futurebird
i.m.o. Everyone is unique and learns differently. I lean in favour of lifelong learning, so less emphasis on jumping through a test by a certain time, and more of seeing the subject appearing everywhere in everyday life, and maybe get the high score eventually.
Some subjects I flew high in, others less so. My interests change over time, and I realise I learn best when my interest is on fire for something.
Some people shut down when they feel tested...
Wishing you breakthroughs!

@futurebird For me it was hearing impairment. Even though I tested 146/144 on Stanford-Binet I could do literature but couldn't do math, and foreign languages were hell. It turned out that even if I was in the front row with a hearing aid, the more a class was about a teacher talking while facing away from me at the blackboard, the more hell I went through. A counselor said, "I was going to put you in for a scholarship, but with these grades I can't." [shakes head slowly]

The cure in my instance was an FM pocket talker with the teacher being willing to wear the transmitter and mic, provided the university's accommodations office. Did not have this until junior year of college, decades after I had dropped out in frustration.

So, I suspect sometimes the hard worker getting nowhere is someone who is up against hidden ableism embedded in classroom culture and design. Not really what you're addressing here but always worth looking into.

@futurebird I chose a different path (dropped out and got my GED)

@futurebird In undergraduate I took a class on Cryptography, and during my grad I took a Statistical Physics class. I earned the s**t out of those Cs.

Why? I dunno. I think the challenge was part of it... it was hard, and that made it interesting. The teachers were also clearly enthusiastic about their subjects.

A large part of it was also that the challenges they were presenting were not rote... I remember getting the feeling that the teachers were pushing me to grow, and that it was not just busywork.

The final feature is that both of the classes were on the periphery of my main area of CS. That definitely helped with the ego hit.

@futurebird struggled with metaphors used to teach maths methods & that being only 1, standard, right way (metaphor) to get to the outcome, to make student grading easy. If your brain isn’t wired that way e.g. https://mastodon.social/@dahukanna/117497707005001013, then brute force, mega-repetitive practice is the only way. As this “torture” rather than fun, happens so often in maths, people drop it as soon as they can.
What saved me in high school was abstract maths, was like your student dying from effort for arithmetic.

@futurebird I didn't. Keep going.

@futurebird I was an English major who needed to take another language class for my MA. Enrolled in a French literature class where everybody else was a French major, so I was the definite dummy of the group. New experience for me! Everything was done entirely in French: all reading, class discussion, assignments, essays, feedback. I wanted so badly, and probably even tried, communicating in English, during discussion but the teacher (even outside of class) resolutely stuck to French.

My grammar, pronunciation, vocabulary, everything was terrible. She even made me hold my nose so I could get the nasal sounds right. It would’ve been easy to relent, especially when I held up the entire class and was clearly frustrated (everybody else was patient with me, I just hated knowing I was the obstacle to moving on). That refusal to make it easy for me (and everybody else) helped me.

@futurebird I struggled Lots with math in school, until a teacher tried me on word problems and a calculator. Turns out I have a learning disability where I can't hold #s in my head, but I can grasp real-world applications well. I went up through Calc III in Uni, even though it wasn't required, because I loved it so much. For me, it was having someone recognize my disability and accommodate, of course, but also how they encouraged me to find my own way into the subject, that did it.

@futurebird I was that student, and I still consider myself "bad at math." What helped was remembering that I'm strong in other subjects. If your struggling student is like me - more of a language arts brain, then they might be able to use it as an advantage; I understand science and math better when I can find good written explanations of concepts.

@futurebird i think the end goal always required me to complete the courses, so I just plugged away and it didn’t bother me to be scraping by. I just needed to make it. But in that sense I also wasn’t trying very hard. I had a lot of personal things happening as a teen, and, I didn’t talk about it at school. I skipped many classes. But an understanding teacher who didn’t make me feel stupid or bad was always appreciated. At least I felt comfortable around them and came to class.

@futurebird Most of the time - needing it for something practical I cared about. E.g. nothing will motivate you to learn linear algebra like wanting to write shaders.