Discussion
RE: https://hachyderm.io/@mekkaokereke/117455880475309031
GIven the positive traction this post got, I'd like to collect some "benevolent algorithms" we could consider. For example:
* Popular posts among people you follow
* Popular posts on your server
* Popular posts with this hashtag
* What would you suggest???
"popular" is defined as some transparent metric around replies + boosts
I am just teasing a bit. I know you are being pragmatic. I really love your design work and the creativity is truly inspirational.
To anyone reading this I recommend watching "Are we really going to use the same Desktop UX forever?" as a nudge to help think out of the box.
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@scottjenson I'd much prefer an environment which allowed users to script (and share) their own algorithms than one algorithm defined on high, no matter how benevolent.
With 'just the order of posting, by those I follow', remaining the default and always available option.
@scottjenson Posts from people I have the highest reciprocal interaction rates with (likes, boosts, replies)
@scottjenson @cheeaun Some negative weight should be assigned if the poster has a large difference between follower/following counts. Maybe some negative weights if they don’t engage, but post a lot. Thinking is downward pressure for “broadcasting” accounts somehow.
@scottjenson Sorting by popular only creates a feedback loop where nobody can make the (good) unpopular posts popular. Mixing popular and unseen/hidden gem* posts might help.
*this might mean posts from people you haven’t seen other posts from in a while, posts that were posted at a time of day when you aren’t usually active, posts in your timeline that have the least views among people on your server… (some of these might require tracking metrics that aren’t feasible)
Popular among bot accounts?
This sounds like a backdoor algorithm to fill mastodon with botfluencers. Worrisome.
@scottjenson fedi needs a sophisticated digest algorithm, suitable for both bulk archives and respecting ephemera.
So I suggest "popular since, prior to trending hashtag, including selected hashtags".
Suitable for generating yesterday's newspaper, of you will.
@scottjenson It would help me when I don't see toots that aren't interesting to me.
Such as my own: https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/6093
Or toots I've already had in one timeline but are now boosted by one of my connected accounts so I see them over and over again.
Frankly, I think that hiding already seen toots would really help me more here.
@scottjenson the important part that I read from @mekkaokereke is not "which algorithms should Mastodon support", but the idea that a pluggable algorithm should be something that an instance chooses for itself, independent of Mastodon-the-server-software.
Not sure if you're asking along the same lines, but just wanted to highlight this. (Also I could be totally wrong about what he meant!)
@isagalaev @mekkaokereke I think that's a good point. Thanks for bringing it up. I was just trying to raise the issue about what type of algorithms there could be, just so that we could talk about them but I think whether Mastodon should do it or an instance should do it should always be on the table.
@scottjenson My view is that prioritization of popular posts is the main cause of polarization on typical social media. I don’t want that.
If chronological isn’t good, then perhaps this: showing unread posts in completely random order.
@remaster First, I don't think that necessarily true and second, this would be a personal preference, not a system wide edict.
For example, there are people IRL that I follow the don't post often, I'd like to see their posts more often. Doing that would not increase polarization.
@scottjenson Ah, I see.
Yes, I’ve added notifications for people who post sparingly, but some algorithm could handle that.
I’ve tried https://bestomasto.com/ that tries to solve this. Not sure how their algorithm works though.
@scottjenson What's the purpose of what we're trying to expose? May I suggest something along the lines of "stuff I haven't seen/don't follow directly but is adjacent" ex: I've liked/replied/reposted a bunch of stuff from folks I follow and maybe there's a hashtag in there that I don't follow, or a post that is from a FOAF.
"Popular" posts that are probably relevant to you will probably eventually get to your timeline because someone you follow will have RT'd it.
@octothorpe We need data otherwise we're both just guessing. For example, I follow enough people that there are popular posts that are long gone by the chronological feed. Yes truly viral posts will make it but I want something a bit more subtle.
I love what @phanpy has done with it's inline boosts carousel. I realize it's not for everyone but it's a small thing that shows there are ways to bump things transparently that are helpful.
@scottjenson Phanpy also has a catch-up mode, which allows you to sort posts by a number of criteria https://phanpy.social/#/catchup @phanpy
@scottjenson @phanpy I forgot about phanpy. There's a lot I like about it (after puttering around with it for a minute)… lots I don't, but generally interesting. Re: carousel, Notionally interesting in practice. However, gets busted pretty quick on narrower columns.
@scottjenson we actually have ‘popular on server’ already. The Trending Posts. Though it could be expanded a tad.
@Setok That is true. I was just trying to list out out ideas to get people thinking
@scottjenson Some exposure to posts that aren’t popular: my Local feed is too overwhelming and unfocused but I think that mixing in maybe 5% random public posts could be good. (Probably from non-brand-new accounts to make it harder to abuse.)
Ultimately my perspective is that “chronological” is a manually curated and maintained list; I’d like to *additionally* be able to create smart lists which don’t require explicit and constant maintenance, and treat any of them as my main feed.
@scottjenson it may be too complicated UX, but I've toyed with the idea of chronological timeline with posts from your lists randomly inserted to break it up.
Similar to how bluesky's chronological timeline will randomly insert posts from subscribed feeds with a callout saying which feed it's from.
Unreads: a set of UserPosts. Contains all the unread posts since last visit, grouped by user (see below).UserPosts: a set of posts from or boosted by a specific user. (Contains all the unread posts from a specific user or boosted by them since your last visit).NextPost: a function that does the following: pick one random UserPosts from the Unreads set, then pick one random post from that UserPosts, which will be returned. Remove that post from the selected UserPosts (and remove that UserPosts from Unreads if it becomes empty).NextPost is invoked every time the feed needs a new post (i.e. several times when the feed first loads, and then repeatedly as needed as the user scrolls the feed).
NextPost could be adjusted to somewhat take into account post popularity, instead of only using randomization, if that would be desired.NextPost picking one post from the chosen UserPosts randomly, it could instead choose based on the highest post in the UserPosts, ranked by (say) (favorites + 3*boosts) / (max(followCount, 0) + 1).@golemwire @portaloffreedom These are all very interesting ideas, thanks for sharing.
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@scottjenson
> What would you suggest???
You start by framing the questions as app features. Why not start more vague and fuzzy, relating to the reasons one would be participating on the social network at all..
* The things that interest me the most
* The people I'd like to meet
* The things that motivate me
* That what brings me joy
* The experience other people have on this
* That what relates to how I want to live
That kind of thing, and then drill down from there :)